Kem Meyer is a recovering corporate spin doctor and outspoken advocate for applying simple insights to the not-so-simple art of communication. She speaks, writes and leads teams to deliver a clutter free and unified experience across departments and campuses. Her book, Less Clutter. Less Noise. helps churches, businesses and not-for-profits find ways to get the word out and, simply, do better.
Carlos Whittaker is a pastor, blogger, creative coach, consultant, and recording artist. His blog (www.ragamuffinsoul.com) engages thousands of readers a day with thought-provoking and honest posts about faith, family, and creativity. His first full-length album, Ragamuffin Soul, was released by Integrity Music in April 2010. Previously, Carlos served as the Director of Service Programming at Buckhead Church, which is one of the three campuses of North Point Community Church.
Charles is the CEO of Ideation, a consultancy that specializes in branding, marketing, design, web, social media, and event development. He is also a founding member of JustOne, a NPO committed to addressing issues of poverty, orphans, and slavery. In addition, Charles leads New Hope, a faith community in the Los Angeles area, and is the creator of grassroots efforts including the Idea Camp, Ideation Conference, and the Freeze Project. Charles regularly speaks around the country on topics such as creativity, innovation, leadership, social media, community development and compassionate justice.
What is the American Church good at?
Charles: The American church is good at being generous when they want to be. You can’t disocunt the fact that the church has done much to bring care and relief to the world. Christians are some of the best leaders in the church space and in not-for-profit sectors.
Carlos: Marketing. We say marketing we get nervous, but we’ve done a good job at figuring out how to attract people. In the blog and book world, the default definition we go to is a megachurch. The average church is less than 200 people. We need to be careful labeling what’s happening in the marketing-driven bigger churches with the rest of the churches that are out there.
What are we doing poorly?
Kem: We’re arrogant. We think that we are really full of ourselves, set in our ways even though we hide behind the words creativity and innovation. It’s hard for us to go outside of our comfort zone. Success can be our biggest detriment. We need to learn to tap into the creativity of a child.
Charles: We need to listen better. Whether in our communities, context or online, we need to listen and let our listening form the direction we are heading. We need to focus on who we are reaching.
Carlos: In churches across the spectrum, there’s a “we’ve got it all figured out” mentality. The American church really loves to teach our ways and tell the world how to do it. We need to realize our country is very young. We have to be careful that we’re not building a monument of what the church should look like, because it won’t always be like that.
When we talk about arrogance and not listening, as leaders and people who want to shape culture and church culture, what should we do?
Kem: It starts right here. We need to open our minds even when people offend us. We don’t have to agree with everything. If you can’t listen in a room of trusted individuals maybe you need to take it to a smaller level. We have to start with little things first before we can think about changing big things like the church. God opens an avalanche through little steps.
Charles: We need to believe that we aren’t mini super heroes who are supposed to save people. We have to believe God has been working in every single human being on the planet. We have to take a place of humility. We don’t have to change the world… you can’t. Be faithful to the areas where you can make some kind of impact. Paul writes about the household. If your household is strong you can begin to shift your focus elsewhere. Part of listening well is recognizing that we don’t have all of the solutions. We need to look at what God is already doing and support that work.
Carlos: We need to work on collaborating with other churches. We’ve had a competition for way too long. We need to collaborate with one another and with others who are different than the rest of us. What would it look like if we tried to find the same string sof Jesus in churches that are radically different. What would it look like if we were a unified Church?
Are their places where God is working in our culture that we haven’t recognized or engaged with yet?
Charles: I’d love to see the church engage more with the for-profit sector. There’s a growth of young people starting non-profit… it’s cool but most won’t survive because they don’t have a business plan. We need to engage and incorporate our faith into the business world. How do we leverage the wisdom of the business class so we can do greater things for the Kingdom. When we go into the city, if we want to fulfill God’s mission, is the best strategy church planting? Maybe it’s going in as a business or a not-for-profit.
Carlos: When pastors plant a church they often become bi-vocational out of need, but many are doing so out of choice. There’s different churches starting with the intention of being in the community Monday-Friday. It’s not about being full-time making Sundays happen, but full-time in the community part-time making church happen. People are seeing their vocation as ministry.
What are some of the shifts we are starting to see?
Carlos: The way church goes typically lasts for about a generation. It’s easy to redeem the values of what happened in church 150 years ago. We can look back a few generations and be behind it [liturgy, etc] but hard to look back one generation and see something worth redeeming. What’s the good that can come out of what’s gone before us?
Kem: Culture is changing so fast it’s like our generations have compressed. When she first came into full-time ministry she looked at the barriers we were creating. We were killing the story by being so unprofessional a few years ago. We professionalized and standardized, but now we are in a new season. We’ve over-professionalized. Now it’s about being less polished, less professional but with a guiding framework.
Charles: We are all agreeing that angst and criticism of the past never produces anything. There are some things from the past that we’ve got to re-embrace. We are in danger of losing our roots. Jesus is still the head of the church even in the midst of our dysfunctional relationships.
Carlos: We are leaving the attractional church wanting to go back to a more mysterious faith. We preach and we sing like we know what we are talking about. We’ve erased the mystery of who God is. There’s a generation that wants that mystery back. Chasing Francis helped to shape his thinking about the attractional model.
How does our spirituality bleed into what we do?
Charles: It’s easy to hide behind technology, tweets, right statements and quotes… and we could lead a completely different life. Technology can keep us close but they can also hide our humanity. If we don’t have a rooted spirituality, everything we do will eventually not add up to much and cost us a tremendous amount. It’s amazing how connected we can be with other people but disconnected from those who are around us.
Kem: We have to champion the personal auditing process. Are we drawing ourselves closer to God? We need to look for an area that’s outside of our comfort zone because that forces us to lean into God. There are times we need to unplug. There are times we need to grab a pen or touch leaves. The other extreme is just as dangerous. Cutting off technology is cutting off a lifeline to a conversation that’s happening out in culture. Our personal spiritual audit process helps us see what we need to dial back or turn up. We are so quick to focus on the medium. It’s not always about that.
Carlos: Our relationship with God the creator is parallel the creativity in our own lives. There is nothing we are going to do that will come close to what people will experience when they see God the Creator. We can’t spend all of our time with God on devices. We’ve got to disconnect and reconnect with God and creation.
As the arts are gaining more traction in the Church the sermon is still very much the center. How do you navigate that tension?
Kem: Throw out the labels. Arts, creative team, leadership team, etc. When we focus on being understood we don’t understand the people around us. The tension is part of the human condition. Part of the problem rests in the label of being a creative. We are all creatives in the ways and places where God has gifted us.
Carlos: We are unique in our one spot… the church paints us into that category. We’re lighting guys, bulletin layout person, music person. The church pegs us in our categories. By painting ourselves as being the creatives we’re creating division. We’re all creators.
Kem: You need to read 200 Pomegranates and an Audience of One by Shawn Wood. It shows how everyone is an artist.
Charles: There’s a great documentary called The Philosopher Kings that talks about janitors, it’s worth watching and learning from.
